Workload Overload | That’s a Good Question

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Boundaries have been blurred as we navigate work in a hybrid world. Many of us feel a lack of control over our workload which spirals, throwing off the equilibrium in all aspects of life.

In this episode of That’s a Good Question, our listener is overextended at work, dealing with the new realities of a hybrid world, is the only person in the organization with the skill set needed to get the job done, and lacking compensation for her efforts.

Through active problem solving, practical advice and shared experiences, we will offer tips and tricks to manage workload overload and regain control. We will explore how to set better boundaries and ways to make adjustments to the emotional habits contributing to the situation.

Guest Expert: Sherry Cassano

Sherry CassanoSherry Cassano is Senior Vice President, People Experience for Pfizer’s Finance, Global Business Services and Manufacturing organizations, where she is responsible for the development and implementation of people experience strategies and initiatives, representing more than one third of the colleague population. Throughout her 20+ year career, Sherry has worked across complex global and matrixed business models to identify, assess, and resolve business and organizational issues, leveraging corporate resources to implement strategies to improve effectiveness. A highly seasoned human resources executive, Sherry brings deep insight and expertise in organizational culture and design, change management, talent development, and advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion.

 

Celeste Headlee

Celeste HeadleeCeleste Headlee is a communication and human nature expert, and an award-winning journalist. She is a professional speaker, and also the author of Speaking of Race: Why Everybody Needs to Talk About Racism—and How to Do It, Do Nothing, Heard Mentality, and We Need to Talk. In her twenty-year career in public radio, she has been the executive producer of On Second Thought at Georgia Public Radio, and anchored programs including Tell Me More, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered, and Weekend Edition. She also served as cohost of the national morning news show The Takeaway from PRI and WNYC, and anchored presidential coverage in 2012 for PBS World Channel. Headlee’s TEDx talk sharing ten ways to have a better conversation has over twenty million total views to date. @CelesteHeadlee

 

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Photo credit: iStock/LaylaBird

 

Episode Transcript

Celeste Headlee:

When did you first realize that there was a problem, Ellen?

Ellen:

I would say it’s probably been since I started in this role, when I changed companies, it’s just gradually gotten worse.

Celeste Headlee:

How long ago was that?

Ellen:

It’s been almost two years.

Celeste Headlee:

Oh, so that’s a pretty good long time.

Ellen:

Yeah.

Celeste Headlee:

And you knew immediately that it was not sustainable.

Ellen:

I knew within the first month that it was not sustainable. Yeah.

Celeste Headlee:

And yet you’ve sustained it for two years. How did you do that?

Ellen:

I’ve been working 14 to 16 hours a day.

Celeste Headlee:

Do you work on the weekends also?

Ellen:

Sometimes. I really try not to, but sometimes yes.

Celeste Headlee:

And have you taken these concerns to your supervisor or manager?

Ellen:

Yeah, so we were running pretty lean in the company, so usually the resolution is to give me a contractor. The problem being that’s temporary, there’s a lot of knowledge transfer involved. So that’s more of my time I still have to invest. And because they’re temporary, I continue to go through this knowledge transfer cycle. And it’s not taking as much of a burden off of me as I think they’re expecting it to, which I also conveyed.

Celeste Headlee:

Who trains the contractor?

Ellen:

Me.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. So I’ve identified a problem. So when you have these conversations with your supervisor or manager, are they sympathetic? Do they downplay your concerns or do they recognize that there’s an issue?

Ellen:

So they definitely recognize that it’s an issue and the issue being is that I’m a business partner, so I’m not a part of the business. I’m not formally a part of IT. I sit in the middle. And so they’re like, “Okay, turn off your computer at eight hours.” And I said, “That’s great until the business side tells us we’re holding up a project or until the IT side tells us we’re holding up a project,” right? It’s not as cut and dry as if I sat on one side or the other because I’m serving both sides.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. And so where are you now, do you think? Have you reached the wall?

Ellen:

Oh, definitely. I mean, I have a board in front of me, let’s see, nine global projects as well as some sub-projects within those that I’m helping to facilitate. And the issue being, and the reason that I am the trainer, is I am the only full-time employee in our organization that has knowledge of the systems that we’re working on integrating.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. I feel like I have identified a whole bunch of issues, but let me bring in our expert, Sherry Cassano, Senior Vice President at Pfizer’s finance global business services and manufacturing organizations. Sherry, I bet you also heard a lot of warning bells going on.

Sherry Cassano:

I did. I did.

Celeste Headlee:

So what’s your initial reaction to Ellen’s situation?

Sherry Cassano:

So, my initial reaction is, I think we need to help Ellen create some boundaries here. Because, what’s happened is it’s not a temporary situation where you’re working 14 to 16 hours for a specific project that will have a clear end date. This has been truly from the beginning. And I fundamentally believe that we teach people how to treat us. And so Ellen, the fact that you’ve been working 14 to 16 hours for the last two years, you’re basically teaching your management that that is okay, and you’re able to do it. So, I think one of the first things that I would like to talk to you about is how do we create some boundaries to just make sure you protect your mental health, your own wellbeing, because I do have some concerns about that.

Sherry Cassano:

And then I would like to talk to you about some of the things that we can talk to your manager about, about creating some priorities and expectations on both the side of your business, with your business partners, as well as with your manager.

Celeste Headlee:

Can we take these step by step…

Sherry Cassano:

Sure.

Celeste Headlee:

… if that’s okay? Can we start with this idea that when she takes these concerns to her supervisor, they say, “Then don’t work past eight hours.” How is she to respond to that?

Sherry Cassano:

So, being in a business partner role much of my career, I can completely empathize with Ellen, and it doesn’t work. It’s not that simple because she’s also trying to deliver a service to her partners and she has to be mindful of the business. So that, I don’t think it’s as simple as just saying, you’re going to turn off your computers. What I think Ellen, though, I would recommend that you do is take the time to look at the full extent of the work on your plate and prioritize that in terms of the things that absolutely you believe need to get done. And, to have a discussion with your manager, as well as the business to say, “These are the things that I see as the absolute priorities.” And then the other things they’re going to have to get in the secondary place. So it’s not that they won’t get done, but these are the four things or five things, whatever, you would have to determine Ellen, these are the things that I can focus on. And get alignment on both sides as to what those priorities are.

Sherry Cassano:

If people say, “Well, no, I need the other three things to be priorities.” Then you need to have the resource conversation. And I also believe in bringing the business in on the resource conversation as well. Maybe if your management can’t pay for the additional resources, maybe the business will. Because, if they believe these things need to get done, then someone needs to fund the work to assist you in getting them done. But we need to be unapologetic about that. I think sometimes we deprioritize ourself because we want to make sure that we come across a certain way with our leaders, with our organization. But, we have to place just as much value on ourselves as we do on the value that people see us as a particular partner in the organization.

Celeste Headlee:

What do you think Ellen? Is that something you can do?

Ellen:

Yeah. I mean, I think it’s necessary because obviously I can’t be everywhere. My meetings overlap, my priorities overlap. So that’s an issue and I have to prioritize. And I mean, you brought up another good point is that we have to invest in resources. So I wasn’t originally brought on in the role I’m in now. I’ve gotten a lot of title upgrades and I’m starting to help form a whole data integration team. The issue is the team is not coming. And the title upgrades are great, but they don’t come with anything financial either. So it’s kind of like they’re setting it up, but there’s nothing supporting that.

Celeste Headlee:

So, I mean, one thing I want to point out Ellen, is that regardless of how much you’re being paid, your current workload is unsustainable.

Ellen:

Correct.

Celeste Headlee:

And so a raise is well deserved and you’re absolutely owed it, but it also is not the solution, right?

Ellen:

Right.

Celeste Headlee:

But Sherry, can we deal with this, the concept that the leadership seems to have that to solve Ellen’s overwork they need to bring on contractors?

Sherry Cassano:

Okay. So, contractors generally are intended as a flexible resource when there’s a temporary situation. Again, no need to bring in someone permanently for a project that is timed down. Doesn’t sound like that is the case here. Seems like this has been two years and continuing without an end to sight. So my preference would be that these would need to be full-time resources. And I think you can make the argument that this is full-time work. But if it is, and again, every organization has different rules and budgets, et cetera. If a contractor is the only resource that they’re offering, I would work to try to see if there’s a way that you can have them for an extended period of time. So in my organization, we have a set period of time where contractors are supposed to work, but we do have a process where we can make an exception to extend them beyond for extenuating circumstances.

Sherry Cassano:

Again, not sure Ellen, if something like that exists in your organization, but you want to make sure that if contractors are the only option, that you find a way so that you’re not in this cycle of having to train people every so, whatever, a year or six months, whatever the period of time is within your organization. But again, it sounds like it should be full-time resources. I really would have a discussion to try to instill in your managers that you would need full-time support to help you.

Celeste Headlee:

Is that possible Ellen?

Ellen:

Yeah. So we have approached the full-time topic multiple times. So they’ve done two annual budget analysis. And up until recently data and data quality and data integration was really not a priority. They’ve seen now why it is. And I think in the next upcoming budget, we would get resources, but we’ve been rejected in the resource conversation for full-time head count the last two years. So, that is an issue. And then the second piece, good slash bad problem is the contractors have learned so much, they’ve taken on growth opportunities, which is why they’ve left.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah.

Ellen:

So it’s like a good and bad problem. I’m very happy for them, but at the same time, it means I have to start from the ground up again.

Celeste Headlee:

Is it less expensive for you to keep hiring contractors than it would be to hire a full-time person?

Ellen:

I think if we look at each project as an individual milestone, yes. But the issue is we have projects going out until, and these are just the scheduled ones, out until the end of 2023. And like I said, I started two years ago. But if they look individually this site versus this site, versus this site, versus all sites, to them, they can equate a contractor’s time to that integration budget, versus breaking it up over several projects over four years or something like that.

Celeste Headlee:

Sherry, what’s the answer here?

Sherry Cassano:

So, my experience has been, if you look at a contractor long term, compared to what it would cost for a full-time FTE, that is actually cheaper to hire a full-time FTE. That is my experience. And I think if you can help with the business case to help people appreciate that, it could open their eyes.

Sherry Cassano:

The other thing, Ellen, and I don’t know if this is an option in your organization. Can you have the business fund? You say you’re supporting a particular business unit or group. Is it an option for them to provide the funding for the headcount? The headcount can continue to report up through IT, but they’re actually funding it. Does that happen in your organization?

Ellen:

So technically I’m funded by the business.

Sherry Cassano:

Oh, you are funded. Okay. So when you’re describing your budget, it’s for the business to pay for this additional resource. Is that how it works?

Ellen:

We’ve tried it both routes.

Sherry Cassano:

Okay.

Ellen:

So for the business that originally hired me in, as well as through IT.

Sherry Cassano:

So you asked me my answer and I really think you need to look at the full suite of what’s on your plate. I wrote down nine global projects.

Ellen:

Yeah.

Sherry Cassano:

That is not sustainable.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah.

Sherry Cassano:

And so I think you now, again, you’ve taught them that you can do it. And so I think what you now need to do is look at the nine projects and everything else that’s on your plate and outline. These are the things that I can actually manage, because working 16 hours or 14 hours for the last two years is not healthy. And so it may feel uncomfortable, and you may feel like people are going to think less of you, but the reality is you have to stand up for yourself. And so if you are in a thoughtful way, think about what’s on your plate, what are the things that are the highest priority? These are the things that I’m going to be able to continue forward. These are the things that are going to have to go to be deprioritized right now and get alignment. And the implications of not having a resource is that these four or five things will not get done. Because, unless you’ve done that, then people don’t understand what they will not get if they don’t provide the resources.

Sherry Cassano:

They understand, “Oh, she’s telling me she needs more,” but you need to show them from a business perspective, what will happen if you do not receive additional head count?

Celeste Headlee:

What’s your fear, Ellen? What are you afraid will happen if you stand up and say, “This is not doable,”?

Ellen:

And it’s not even necessarily a fear. It’s that I have stood up and said, “It’s not doable,” countless times. And nothing has changed, right? So depending on who I’m in the conversation with, the constant question is, “Okay, how many resources do you need?” And I’m like, “That won’t move the timeline. Because, even if I have to train the resources, it’s not going to expedite anything because there’s only one of me.” And from a conceptual standpoint, we can’t get in contractors to the level that we need to be a co-partner at my level. We’re only getting people that I can give specified tasks to, to go and manage.

Celeste Headlee:

But as long as you are continuing to get things done, they’re not really understanding that it’s not doable because it is doable, you’re doing it.

Ellen:

Right.

Sherry Cassano:

And that’s my question-

Ellen:

So I guess I need a different way to approach it.

Sherry Cassano:

Yes. So this is what I’m saying, Ellen. So, you’ve already escalated, this is a problem. But now I’m suggesting, let’s just take the nine projects. And I’m telling you to be honest, you obviously are a very hard worker. Of the nine if you thought, okay, given the resources I have, given the capacity I have, what could I actually do in the most effective way? Five, let’s say. You need to say to them, these are the five that are top priority. These are the five that I’m going to focus on. These other four are not going to be able to be done right now. You’re at this point where you need to be prepared to say, “I’m going to have to stop doing things.”

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah.

Ellen:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sherry Cassano:

You have to be very clear and not optional. And now you can say, “These are the five that I’m prioritizing. Would you see a different order?” Because they may say you didn’t pick the correct five. Okay. So I’m not saying you’re not flexible, but this set number will have to stop right now. You have to get to that point. Otherwise there’s really no motivation for them. There’s no incentive for them to change because the work is still getting done, at your expense.

Celeste Headlee:

Right.

Ellen:

Right.

Celeste Headlee:

I used to tell my employees to stop and go home because I could not make the case to the executives that I needed more people on my team as long as they were continuing to get everything done.

Ellen:

Yes.

Celeste Headlee:

I said, you’re going to have to let things fall through the cracks. Some of the work will have to not get done or I can’t tell people that it’s not doable. You’re doing it.

Sherry Cassano:

Right.

Ellen:

And I think that is what my boss meant when he said just stop at at eight hours.

Celeste Headlee:

I’m sure.

Sherry Cassano:

Right. He’s probably at that point. And so I’m just telling you to be a little bit more transparent with it. These are the four, I’m using numbers, but maybe three, but this is what I’m going to continue because I see these as the most important. But these right now, we’re not able to focus. I am not able to focus on these things right now, very transparently. And then that’s it, because I don’t want you to be in a situation where people are accusing you of not doing your job. That’s why I’m encouraging you to have a very transparent conversation and link it directly to, this is what I would need in order to get all nine done. This is what I would need. And if they’re not able to do that, fine. But, you have to understand then what’s going to happen. There are implications for that decision.

Ellen:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. I think that’s far more doable to put there. And then once it’s agreed to with my boss, even to publicize that, to the programs that are running,

Sherry Cassano:

Correct. Correct.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. So Ellen, you feel like that’s something you can do?

Ellen:

Yeah. I mean, I already have it documented and I already have, because my boss continues, we continue to meet and prioritize the projects. But the issue is it’s a dynamic prioritization and it needs to be a static one so that I can drop off those other task, or not drop off. But, they are only as bandwidth allows within normal hours.

Celeste Headlee:

And if that happens, will this job be one that you love?

Ellen:

Yeah. I mean, I love my job and that’s part of the reason I don’t mind working so long. But, when other parts of my life are falling behind, it’s an issue for me.

Sherry Cassano:

Yeah.

Celeste Headlee:

So Sherry, I wonder, especially for those listeners who might be in a similar situation to Ellen, at what point in this evolution, as you’re giving her this advice, and as she might try to do these things, does there a come point when you say, “That’s it, we can’t do this.”?

Sherry Cassano:

So, what I would say is if she does end up having that discussion, that prioritization discussion with her management, and she received a response such as, “Well, that is unacceptable. That will not work.” Meaning, there’s no willingness to empathize with the situation or assist with it, then I would have to encourage you to look for other opportunities. If your manager says, “I understand, this prioritization makes sense,” or, “Well, we do need you to do all nine, but we’re going to work to get the resources.” There seems to be a cooperation, a willingness to support you. Then I think that’s great because you do love what you do. But if you’ve tried to escalate the issue, you tried to raise it. If now you’re now taking it a step further, as I’m encouraging you to do, and you continue to receive resistance, then at some point I would say that you need to prioritize yourself over this work.

Celeste Headlee:

What if they tell her, “We can probably do that in a year,”? What if they say, “We’re temporarily in the situation where we can’t do it, but we’re going to get there,”?

Sherry Cassano:

So, I would have to ask Ellen, could she continue at this pace for a year? For me personally, the answer would be that’s not acceptable because it’s already been two years. So, I believe in being flexible with an organization, things happen, but it’s already been two years. Another year would make it three. What’s to say that after a year it would not be another? So to be honest, I don’t think I would be able to wait another year, especially given the situation you’re working in, 14 to 16 hours a day. Burnout is real, and I do think we need to more than ever prioritize our own mental health and wellbeing.

Sherry Cassano:

And I was just reading a quote from Ariana Huffington the other day, which to me was so powerful. She said, “Wellbeing and productivity are not on the opposite sides that need to be balanced.” Our work and our life, same thing. They’re not on the opposite sides. They are on the same side so that they can rise together. So what I take away from that is we don’t because we want to focus on being productive at work, or we want to focus on work, we completely ignore our personal life, our own wellbeing. No. They need to be on the same side because in order for Ellen to do her best at work, she needs to be able to be her best in her personal life. And so I would not encourage you to wait another year with this Ellen.

Ellen:

Yeah. And I think I would agree, right? If I come forward and it’s not like, “Okay, yes, focus on these five and we’ll either deprioritize the others or adjust timelines or something.” If they’re still like, “Okay, focus on the nine,” I would want to say, “Okay, within the next three months I need to see a job posting for assistance,” right? I would need to set some sort of boundary because I think that’s part of what’s been happening, right? Is they go, they request funding, they come back say they don’t get it. And then they’re like, “Okay, we’ll request it again sometime.” And I think that’s where I need to draw a line and say like, “No. Go make the emergency request. I’ll help you make the business case. But I need you to put the effort in to post this.”

Sherry Cassano:

Yes.

Celeste Headlee:

So, the only warning I would have for you Ellen, is that it has been two years when, to my mind, when I heard you describing what you’re going through, I thought, absolutely not. How on earth have you put up with this for so long? And that tells me that you have not been as protective of yourself or as assertive. You haven’t been the kind of advocate for yourself that you possibly need to be to safeguard your wellbeing. And knowing this about yourself, what can you do to prepare yourself to make a different choice next time?

Ellen:

I need to be clearer with the business. I definitely need to not be sucked in. I’m very empathetic. So if somebody’s like, “I’m just having such an issue. Can you do this?” I tend to get sucked in there. I need to kind of just draw that line all around that I am spread too thin. These are my primary focuses and route them to other people.

Celeste Headlee:

Sherry, any advice on how she can prepare for these conversations because they haven’t gone great in the past, right?

Sherry Cassano:

Yes. And if I may, even before I answer that question, something that Ellen said just made me spark something. Ellen, I think you also need to change a bit of your mindset. And many of us are guilty of this. We like to be the savior. We take very much, a lot of pride in the work that we do and the service we deliver. And so we go above and beyond. So some of this you just said, they’re telling you they’re overwhelmed, so you take on more. You got to get that mind shift. You got to shift your mindset. You are already adding tremendous value to the company. You no longer need to continue to prove that by taking on more and more. So I think also Ellen, it could be a little bit of your ability also to say no is what I suspect is also happening here. And so you just want to make sure that you’re not allowing yourself to even take more than the nine, just because of who you are. That is not the value. That is not your value, that you can always rise to the occasion and take everything on. And so I just wanted to just call that out when I heard that.

Sherry Cassano:

But in terms of the question, how to prepare for this discussion, I think you should literally write down what you want to say. In terms of, this has been going on for two years. I’ve really looked at all of my projects. These are the set number that I want to prioritize. And this is what I need from you. And the support to basically go to the business, to let them know that I’m not going to be involved in these meetings as much. It’d be more as bandwidth allows or the timelines need to be changed. You fill in the blank of what that is. But, be very clear about what you want. And be prepared. Even if you need to role play with the friend, whomever, be prepared for the objections. “Oh, we’re going to post it in two months.” Be prepared with what you will say, because you’ve heard this now for two years. And remain professional and composed of course, but be firm and be confident that you have the right to be firm to say, “This is what I need.”

Sherry Cassano:

Often as women, we don’t prioritize what we need. And so at this point you’ve been more than patient. So I think you actually should prepare, write it down, role play, if you could, so that you feel comfortable to have this discussion and you stand firm in your decision that this is what you need in order to continue. You will not continue another year working in the way that you have been.

Ellen:

Yeah. Yeah.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. I second that because telling yourself that the way you’ve handled in the past hasn’t been good enough, is fine. But, when push comes to shove, there’s something inside you that says, yes. There’s something inside you that when they say, “If you don’t do this, things are going to fall apart,” something inside you says, “I can’t let that happen.”

Sherry Cassano:

Yes.

Ellen:

Yep.

Celeste Headlee:

And so that’s what you’re going to have to grapple with. There’s this part of you that, for some reason, can’t let things fall apart.

Ellen:

Right, because the falling apart is when they put the resources-

Celeste Headlee:

Correct.

Sherry Cassano:

And Ellen, if you should ask yourself, if you resigned tomorrow, what would they do? They would figure it out, and they would probably hire three people to replace you. So you have to think about it. It doesn’t mean that you don’t want to do a good job, you don’t want to be a high performer. But at the end of the day, you can’t also have a savior complex that, “They need me. If it’s not me, everything will fall apart.” So it’s a bit of a mindset shift as well.

Celeste Headlee:

And that means you are going to have to use different language. So what Sherry’s telling you about, writing it down and practicing it, get feedback, try it out on somebody, because you need to use a different language. The language you have been using has not been working.

Ellen:

I think it’s been too much of like a sit back and let somebody else drive and more of a request. So, I think I need to be very clear that it is a need, it’s a necessity to continue to grow the organization they want me to grow.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. It’s not even a need. The way Sherry’s describing is just saying, “Look, this is how it is. This is what I can do. And this is what I can’t.” Done. It’s not a need.

Sherry Cassano:

So I would say something, “I am the only person in this company doing this role. I need some additional support, as we’ve discussed. I’m going to prioritize the work in the following way.” One, two, three, whatever that means. “That then means that items X, Y, and Z will probably not be able to get done unless they’re assigned to someone else or I’m able to secure additional resources. Is that the priority prioritization that you’d prefer?” Because again, I want you to have a conversation so you can get alignment. “Or would you prefer I group these differently?” It’s not, “Would you prefer I keep all nine?” You’re not giving that as a choice. You’re saying, “I’m taking some things off my plate right now until I’m able to get additional support.” So you should be very clear. Don’t give an opportunity for, “Okay, keep the nine for another six months until we can get a budget approval.” You’re beyond that. That’s what’s been happening the last two years.

Celeste Headlee:

And you also need to create these, we started out with Sherry talking to you about creating boundaries and that’s a real thing. That’s not a mental thing. That’s an actual action that you take. And by that I mean, stop answering emails over the weekend. Stop checking your work email or Slack or anything else in your off hours. As long as you’re doing that, if you’re answering an email at nine o’clock at night on a Friday, or at 10:00 in the morning on a Sunday, that’s teaching people that that’s okay for them to message you at those times.

Ellen:

And that’s exactly how my day went from starting at 8:00 AM to 4:30 or 5:00 AM.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. It’s got to stop.

Sherry Cassano:

Yes, it has to stop. It has to stop. And in the meantime while you’re in this process, you also should schedule time, literally schedule it in your calendar where you take a break…

Celeste Headlee:

Yes.

Sherry Cassano:

… because if you don’t do that, it will never happen. This era of working remotely, many of us working in a hybrid model, you need to schedule time where you have a moment to do something, whatever that something is, take a walk, meditate, just walk away from the screen, walk away from everything. Because, it will allow you to recharge even for 30 minutes, that’s all you really need. But, schedule it in your calendar so that you can at least have that as a visual reminder that you need to take a moment away.

Celeste Headlee:

I mean, think about it this way, we put things on our calendar when they’re high priority, meaning that we don’t want to forget them. If you had a meeting with your boss, you would probably have multiple reminders to make sure that you are there on time. Taking those breaks that Sherry is talking about is crucial. In fact, the WHO, the World Health Organization, their recent research shows that overworking shortens your life. Not as a correlation, but as a causation. That’s how important it is that you get this time off. So, give it the importance it requires, put it in your calendar. That’s not metaphorical. That’s literal. Put that time in your calendar, set a timer if you have to, and make sure you’re taking that time.

Ellen:

Yeah. Yeah. I need to because I have it on my calendar, but I don’t enforce it. And that’s a problem.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. That’s a big problem.

Sherry Cassano:

Yes. It’s a problem. You want to live a long time, Ellen.

Ellen:

Yes. Yes, I do.

Sherry Cassano:

We want you to live a long time, so it’s important. It’s important for all of us. For the listeners, I’m sure, we are all struggling with many of the same things in this area, but it needs to be a priority.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. And in fact, especially related to our listeners and the three of us right here, new research shows that there is an absolute epidemic of burnout, especially among female workers in the United States. In fact, in this particular such survey from Deloitte was 5,000 women in 10 different countries. And we have an epidemic of burnout. 53% of women reported stress levels higher than they were a year ago, with mental health straight in the toilet and work life balance almost nonexistent. So this is serious. This has an impact on your health, your wellbeing, how much you’re able to invest in the people that you love. And so you have to take it that seriously. You have to take it as though this is one of your projects that you’re assigned at work because it is at least that important.

Ellen:

Right. No, I agree. Because a lot has suffered because of it. So there’s been trips I’ve missed going on, things like that, right? Things that allow me to recharge.

Celeste Headlee:

Yeah. You wouldn’t be here right now if you didn’t recognize that there is an issue.

Sherry Cassano:

Yes.

Ellen:

Right.

Celeste Headlee:

Ellen, before we wrap up, do you feel as though you have some specific things to do and you to feel empowered? Do you know what you need to take care of?

Ellen:

Yes. I’ve been scribbling notes over here for sure. On the verbiage that you’ve been using, on the approach, on standing strong and confident in what I am ask, not even asking for, what I am telling them is the status of the situation. And yeah, I’m going to write down kind of my thoughts and do some practicing. And hopefully next week when I have my formal meetings, I can approach this topic, if not the following week. I have on weekly, so it will happen within the next two weeks.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. Make it happen. Sherry, any last thoughts for Ellen?

Sherry Cassano:

I would just tell Ellen, I have confidence that you will be able to deliver this message, prioritize yourself. It’s okay to do that. You should be unapologetic about that, as I said before. And I always like to go to, what is the worst case scenario, just because I feel like if we can face the worst case scenario, we can deal with anything. The worst case scenario is that you need to find another employer. The market is great. So you’ve heard of…

Ellen:

Yes, yes. True.

Sherry Cassano:

… that sometimes a buyer and seller’s market, it’s an employee’s market. So, I truly hope it doesn’t have to come to that. But, also have confidence that there are many external opportunities if this one is not working. So, that’s where I would leave you.

Ellen:

Yep. I completely agree.

Celeste Headlee:

Okay. I want to say thank you to Sherry Cassano, Senior Vice President people experience for Pfizer’s finance global business services and manufacturing organizations. Thank you so much, Sherry.

Sherry Cassano:

Thank you for having me.

Celeste Headlee:

And thank you, Ellen. I know sometimes it can be a little scary to discuss these issues. But, you’re bringing this kind of issue forward is going to help a lot of other people. So, thank you.

Ellen:

Thank you so much for helping me with this.