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Misty Copeland made history as the first African-American female principal ballerina at the American Ballet Theatre.
Her talent, passion, and perseverance enabled her to do what no one had accomplished before. In this episode, which is a replay of an extraordinary conversation from the March 2023 California Conference for Women, Target’s EVP and chief external engagement officer Laysha Ward gets up close and personal with Misty Copeland.
Together they talk about Copeland’s journey of resilience and courage through struggles with racism and exclusion. They also discuss her new book, The Wind At My Back, which celebrates the special connection Copeland made with her mentor Raven Wilkinson.
Listen in, and learn how mentorship and intergenerational relationships can propel your career and bring additional meaning to your life.
Our Guest: Misty Copeland
Misty Copeland is a principal dancer at American Ballet Theatre and the author of the New York Times bestsellers Life in Motion, Ballerina Body, Black Ballerinas, and the children’s picture book Bunheads, as well as the award-winning children’s book, Firebird. She made her Broadway debut in 2015’s On the Town, putting the show into the Broadway Box Top 10 for the two weeks that she guest starred as Ivy Smith.
She’s been featured in the New York Times and on CBS Sunday Morning and 60 Minutes, and she was named one of Glamour’s Women of the Year and Time magazine’s 100 most influential people.
Copeland is the recipient of the Young, Gifted & Black Honor at the Black Girls Rock! Awards and the Springarn Medal, the NAACP’s highest honor.
Guest Host: Laysha Ward
Laysha Ward is an accomplished C-suite executive with thirty years of leadership experience at Target. In 2017, Ward was named executive vice president, chief external engagement officer, overseeing Target’s enterprise-wide approach to engage and deepen relationships with cross-sector stakeholders to drive positive business and community impact. In 1991, Ward began her career with Target as a member of the store sales and management team of Marshall Fields in Chicago. In 2000, she was named director of community relations and promoted to vice president of community relations and Target Foundation in 2003. In 2008, President Bush nominated, and the U.S. Senate confirmed Ward would serve on the board of directors of the Corporation for National and Community Service, the nation’s largest grantmaker for volunteering and service, which she continued to serve as board chair under the Obama Administration. Later that year, she was promoted to president of community relations and the Target Foundation. She serves on the Aspen Institute Latinos and Society Advisory Board and the Stanford Center for Longevity Advisory Council, is a member of the Executive Leadership Council, the Economic Clubs of New York and Chicago, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, The Links, and serves on the boards of Greater MSP, the Minnesota Orchestra, and the Northside Achievement Zone, as well as United Airlines and Denny’s Corporation for-profit board of directors. She received a bachelor’s degree from Indiana University, master’s degree from the University of Chicago, and an honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Minnesota’s Humphrey School of Public Affairs. She and her husband, Bill, reside in Minneapolis, MN.
Women Amplified Host: Celeste Headlee
Celeste Headlee is a communication and human nature expert, and an award-winning journalist. She is a professional speaker, and also the author of Speaking of Race: Why Everybody Needs to Talk About Racism—and How to Do It, Do Nothing, Heard Mentality, and We Need to Talk. In her twenty-year career in public radio, she has been the executive producer of On Second Thought at Georgia Public Radio, and anchored programs including Tell Me More, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered, and Weekend Edition. She also served as cohost of the national morning news show The Takeaway from PRI and WNYC, and anchored presidential coverage in 2012 for PBS World Channel. Headlee’s TEDx talk sharing ten ways to have a better conversation has over twenty million total views to date. @CelesteHeadlee
Additional Resources:
- Website: Misty Copeland
- Get FREE shipping on Copeland’s books when you order from our partner bookstore, BookPeople.
Episode Transcript
Laysha:
I’m so excited to have you here. I am fan girling. Just love, love, love your, your work and your artistry. So let’s begin by talking about your role in history. You’re the first black female principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater, the highest level a dancer can achieve. How did you discover ballet and what was it that you loved about it?
Misty:
Wow. I, I often say that ballet discovered me. I, I didn’t know anything about it. I, I had a love of music. That was kind of the, the, the common like language in my household was was music. You know, we, whether we were sad or, you know, feeling joy, joyful music kind of told that story. We didn’t really communicate verbally, which you know, has been something I’ve worked on my whole life. But music was that thing for us, and, and I naturally kind of fell into dancing and movement. Like that’s how I responded to hearing music. But it wasn’t until I was 13 years old at my Boys and Girls Club in San Pedro, California that a free ballet class was being offered, and me and my five siblings were already members of the Boys and Girls Club.
So we were there, you know, in order for my mother to work several jobs and for us to stay safe and off the streets. So when I, this ballet class was being offered, I was really forced into taking it. And the first couple of classes I took Ron, a basketball court in the gym, and it was not something I was excited about. It was so foreign to me. I’d never heard classical music before. It wasn’t until I was taken into the local ballet studio on full scholarship that I really started to fall in love with it.
Laysha:
Misty, say more about when you say you were forced to take that class at the Boys and Girls Club. Yeah. What was, what do you mean by that?
Misty:
So there was a, a, a drill team coach. I was the captain of the drill team at my middle school. Even though I had no dance experience, I somehow ended up in that position. You know, just, I think out of this sheer love of, of movement and, and music again. And it was the, the drill team coach Elizabeth Cantine, who suggested I take these free ballet classes. She thought that I was a really natural mover. And when she introduced me to Cynthia Bradley, who was the teacher at the Boys and Girls Club she, she knew of my ability, but I was so introverted that I just, the thought of doing something so far outside of my comfort zone was mortifying. So I would sit in the bleachers like week after week when this class was being given at the Boys and Girls Club.
And every, every class, Cynthia, Cynthia would come over and she would talk to me and try and get me to step onto the court. And it took weeks of, of her convincing me that this was something I should try and that the environment was gonna be safe, and that I, you know, it wouldn’t be as scary as I thought it was going to be. And, and she was right. And it became even more of the safe space for me when I stepped into an actual ballet studio. Once we had left the Boys and Girls Club, I was at her school, the San Pedro Dance Center and was in an actual studio. I could see myself in the mirror. I was wearing ballet attire, which I wasn’t wearing at the Boys and Girls Club. And everything about it made me feel like I was a part of something that was bigger than me. That I was a part of a community, that I was doing something that was beautiful and, and I felt beautiful and, and safe for the first time in my life.
Laysha:
Hmm. I love that you clearly had people in your life who were betting on you, who believed in you, and who were nurturing and encouraging you to, to really use your talent in your gifts in ways that you hadn’t fully expressed or even perhaps quite understood yet. So amazing to hear, you know, in a field that has been predominantly white, you know, you’ve really broken barriers that many thought weren’t possible. How did that experience change you and change ballet?
Misty:
Wow. you know, coming into, coming from a diverse, you know, experience growing up in California you know, being a part of a diverse community, it was, it was somewhat of a shock to, to my system entering the ballet world pro, but probably not until I, I was a professional, did I really start to understand how rare it was to see a black or brown woman in the classical ballet world. And it definitely you know, it changed the way that I, I thought of myself. Like, I, I was always very aware of the fact that I was a black girl. Like, that’s the way my mother raised me, even though I’m biracial. She was like, you are black. That’s how the world is going to view you. That’s how you’re going to be you know, people are gonna react or treat you in a certain way because you are a black woman.
Laysha:
How did you feel when your, when your mom coached you in that way?
Misty:
It was just normal. I mean, I mean, I was proud. I was proud to be, you know, to be a black girl. And, and, you know, I don’t think I ever felt any outwardly anyways. Like, I never felt any confusion about being biracial. Like, I felt very comfortable in my skin with, with kind of owning that, yes, I am biracial, but this is, this is how, you know, this is the community I’m a part of. And moving to New York City, I thought that I was gonna have this incredible experience. You know, I’m moving to this diverse place, and I was spending eight hours a day in a studio with only white people in a building with only white people once I joined American Ballet Theater. And and it, it, I mean, psychologically, emotionally, mentally, like, it really took a toll on me. And, you know, it took me kind of reaching out and mentors coming into my life organically, but I think they came into my life because I was ready for them. And
Laysha:
You, you, you’re hitting on something that I think is really important for us to explore a bit. You said you were ready for them to come into your life. Say more about that.
Misty:
Yeah, you know, I, I have a lot of young people in my life, and when we talk about what it means to have mentors and how you connect with them, like what that looks like and I do think that, you know, it’s not just about kind of stumbling upon or, you know, or, or people kind of reaching out to you and, and guiding you, but being open to, to accepting advice and accepting guidance, which I think is hard for a lot of young people to do when you’re growing and you’re figuring out who you are and who you want to be and, and you think you know everything. And, and, and I had to, to really, I think I, I grew up fast in that sense of being open and ready for guidance because I was alone, because I was in an atmosphere where I didn’t have this kind of built in support on a daily basis. And so I knew I needed that in order to succeed in the ballet world. So, you know, it was, it was a journey, but it’s really been about the support system that I’ve had from mostly black women that have been kind of the, my backbone .
Laysha:
Oh, love that. And, you know, we talk about young people not always being as open as we’d like them to be, but you know, sometimes that’s the case for adults too, right? This, this willingness to be open. So thank you for your openness and your willingness to share so transparently what your experience has been like and, and how that might serve as an inspiration for others. You know, historically, ballet has been inaccessible to many and viewed as a privilege pursuit of sorts. Your upbringing, however, was not one of financial privilege. And in fact, at one point you said that your mom told you that you had to quit because you were not able to get to lessons. It was just too hard. So can you tell us a bit more about that?
Misty:
Yeah. You know, it was a very different experience than, you know, my, my peers that I was surrounded by. You know, when I started out with my ballet training at the time, my mother had had just divorced her fourth husband. You know, we were so used to instability me and my siblings and, and you know, not no consistency. We were constantly moving in, in different schools. And we had settled in a motel and we were, me and my, my five siblings were all in one room sleeping on the floor. And you know, at that point, ballet, you know, it was an extracurricular activity in my mother’s eyes. And she had six children that she needed to keep in school, you know, food on the table, roof over our head. And she was struggling financially and in every way.
And so the first thing that she needed to do was make sure that I was safe. And I was going back and forth on a public bus to get to and from Vale, or finding rides to get there. And so it was like a no-brainer for her. Like, ballet needs to to end, and you need to be at home, you know, and safe. And it was, you know, at a point where I think me and my, my teacher, Cindy, had realized that this really could be a career path for me. And, you know, my family didn’t grow up in that, in, in the ballet world, so no one really understood what that really meant. So when my mom said I needed to quit you know, it was a big secret for me that I didn’t share a lot of our personal experiences at home.
I didn’t have a lot of close friends because I was so ashamed of, of the constant moving and not having a lot of money. And so my teacher, Cindy, didn’t even know where I was living. And it was on the ride home that I gave her the address, and she didn’t realize we were living in a motel until she turned into the parking garage and saw where we were living. And it was, it was mortifying for me. And I remember just running out of the car and into the room and kind of sitting in a corner and kind of reverting back to the person I was before I, I found ballet before ballet found me. This introverted kind of zoned out little girl. And a couple of minutes later, Cindy came back and she knocked on the door and invited me to come live with her and her family. And I
Laysha:
So
Misty:
Powerful. Yeah, I packed up my book bag that day. And
Laysha:
On this, the spot that day, you packed up,
Misty:
Literally within minutes I was in her car and on my way to her house. And and I ended up living with her for three
Laysha:
Years. So tell us about that conversation with your, your mom and your siblings. What was that like?
Misty:
I mean, as I was saying earlier, there wasn’t a lot of communication in my household verbally. So I don’t remember there really even being a conversation. Wow. The conversation was between Cindy and my mother. And I didn’t hear the conversation. They were kind of whispering in the doorway. And my mother just turned to me and said, Cindy has invited you to live with her. And, and I was like, I, yes, I, I wanna go. You know, I knew I had an idea of what could be possible and that I could, I could build, I could break the cycle of what I was experiencing and also do something that brought me beauty and, and serenity and comfort and consistency and, you know, all the amazing things that art brings to children and to people. To be able to walk away from that was a nightmare. And so I was gonna do anything I could to stay a part of it.
Laysha:
That is so extraordinary. I, I, I’m just blown away by your story, by your wisdom, by the vision and courage, quite frankly, that you expressed at such an early age incredible to hear about. And, and it sounds like your teacher really recognized that you were a prodigy. And, and for some people, you know, that kind of label could come with great expectations that could be really hard to live up to. So how did you deal with that pressure? Yeah. And did it get easier with age?
Misty:
I never really, I don’t wanna say accepted, but the word prodigy meant nothing to me. . I never I never,
Laysha:
But you were, you were a prodigy, though. Let’s be clear. , no question
Misty:
. I, I, I knew that I was learning at a really rapid speed and that I had a lot of catching up to do. But I never focused on that. I never got caught up in what that label meant. I knew that I was in love with this thing I was doing, and that every day I was so eager and hungry to be in the studio. I mean, this was the experience that I wish I would’ve had in school. And I, and that’s why I think it’s so important to have the arts, because not every child learns in the same way. And I didn’t learn in a way that worked for me, like sitting behind a desk and reading from a book, I knew you’re
Laysha:
An experiential learner. Experiential for sure. Exactly
Misty:
Right. And so you know, when I, when I started dancing I was just, I couldn’t wait to learn every day. And, and, and that made me, you know, soak it all in even more because I was excited to be there and hungry. It wasn’t until I moved to New York City and and kind of ha had this reputation, I guess , you know, my name had had kind of traveled beyond San Pedro, California where I grew up you know, from the competitions that I had won at a young age. The big controversy that happened when you know, my, my teacher had suggested I emancipate myself in order to have full control over my career. There was a lot that happened where it was like national news and people knew me as this prodigy. You know, I had only trained for four years before I joined American Ballet Theater and, and moved to New York City.
So it wasn’t until then that I realized the weight of that word but again, I just focused on what I needed to do. It, it, it wasn’t about writing on, you know, this, this idea of me being a prodigy or what I had done in the past. It was like I had goals set at American Ballet Theater as soon as I arrived there. And and it was like, I knew in my mind that I was starting from scratch. I was surrounded by people that I idolized, people that I’d been watching my entire career on, on VHS tapes, . There was no YouTube back then, , but
Laysha:
VHS tape some, some of the people listening don’t even know what a VH tech tape is, .
Misty:
But I was, I was studying these people and surrounded by greatness, so I knew I had to rise to the occasion. So that prodigy label, I feel like never weighed me down. And, and I think I escaped it.
Laysha:
I love that though. You were focused on doing something that you loved and honing in on your craft and just continuing to get better. And, and clearly that formula was a formula for success and really appreciate you sharing that perspective. You know, in the ballet world, there is an expectation of perfection, I think, and perfectionism is a challenging issue for many women. Women. And so, do you consider yourself a perfectionist? And if so, what does that look like for you?
Misty:
Hmm. I’ve always thought of myself as a perfectionist. I mean, even before ballet. But I, I feel like looking at what that word means now, I feel such a sense of negativity attached to it. And I think a lot of this, like perfection that I, that I felt, especially as a young person, was really based around fear and, and judgment. Like what people would were gonna think of me, which made me feel that I had to, to be perfect, whatever that means. I mean, there’s so many different ideas of what that means and for, for different people. But yes, there is, there is this negativity and perfectionism, like around classical ballet, and I wanna get rid of that. You know, I, I feel like at this point in my career, you’re at 40 years old. I’ve been a professional at a b t for over 20 years.
And, and it’s really about me being the best, my best self every day. And that every day is a new opportunity to, to, you know, strive for something different. And I think that’s the beauty of, like, the classical ballet technique and working, using your body as an instrument, is that it’s ever changing. You can’t, I mean, you can, you can prepare it the best way you can by training, by resting, by getting body work done, but in the end, like these small nuanced changes that happen from day to day, you can’t really control. And so you have to be really present and really grounded in yourself and in your body and be be forgiving of, you know, what may go on. So that’s a long way around answer saying that I, I don’t believe in, in being like a perfectionist.
Laysha:
I, I, I love that thoughtful response, and I love this focus on just being the best version of yourself every day and waking up every day just trying to do and be your best. It’s phenomenal. You know, there are unique pressures that come with being a woman. So what advice do you have for the women listening today who are struggling with some of these pressures?
Misty:
You know, what I always go back to is the importance of having a support system in your life. You know, whether that’s family or friends, or you know, your work colleagues. I think that it’s so vital as women in this society that we have one another, especially to lean on that we try to not to set these expectations that aren’t, aren’t realistic or, or manageable that, you know, you try not to compare yourself to other people. I know that sounds like so basic and like, you know, what we, what we say to five year olds, but I think it’s something we have to continue, continue to say to ourselves, even, even as adults, as, as, as grown, you know, professional women that it’s so powerful to be an individual and to be uniquely yourself. And it’s so interesting that I, you know, that’s something that became a theme in my relationship with Prince when we worked together that if I was going to take that advice from anyone, it was gonna be Prince who was such a unique and incredible individual and artist, and the power in owning who you are is, it’s so powerful.
Laysha:
Oh, I love that. I’m a huge Prince fan by the way. And he certainly was a unique artist with many, many gifts and talents. And so it’s really fun to hear about your personal relationship and the wisdom that you gained from him as well. You know, I often say life is about progress, not perfection. And, and certainly you’ve spoken about that and the importance of women supporting women and, and this conference really is all about that. So, you know, thank you for sort of connecting to the theme of this conference. You know, shifting a bit, receiving negative feedback is never easy, and it’s natural for it to feel really personal at times. And so I’d be curious to hear from you how you’ve navigated challenging feedback throughout your career.
Misty:
Yeah. I definitely connect with this question . I think that, you know, throughout the course of my career, it’s, it’s been about being comfortable in, in my skin and, and knowing who I am, and knowing the person I want to be, the artist that I want to be. And being able to sift through when there’s negativity attached to the feedback you’re getting or criticism as dancers, it’s, it’s, it’s built into what we do. You know, throughout an entire hour and a half class that we take every morning, you’re constantly getting feedback and criticism, and it’s try, it’s understanding what works for you. You know, again, if it’s coming from the right place, there are people that you trust that it’s coming from. Again, it’s sifting through where that’s coming from. So for me you know, if it’s coming from, you know, people in blogs who have whatever it is to say about me or my performances, it’s like, you kind of take it with a grain of salt,
Laysha:
Right? That’s just noise. Right. And you can sort of put that beside
Misty:
Exactly. Exactly. And, and you know, when it’s, you know, whether it’s the my coaches that I trust, of course I’m, I’m going to accept and take that, that feedback and criticism and work on myself. And that’s how you become your best self every day. And, and there’s something so beautiful about having people around you who are going to be open and honest and help you to be your best self.
Laysha:
Yeah. That’s fantastic. You know, I’ve found that even challenging feedback is an opportunity for learning and growth, particularly if it’s coming from a safe space and a trusted voice as you articulate it. So, wonderful, wonderful advice. And the advice that, you know, if it’s not coming from a great place, and social media at times is not always kind, that we have to learn how to, you know, shut out that noise and focus on the voices and the insights that that really matter most and are in our best interest. So really, really great advice. You know, after four years of intensive training with your first teacher you were a professional dancer performing at Lincoln Center just four years. That is absolutely incredible. How did you achieve so much success in a relatively short period of time?
Misty:
You know, I think that I was craving the opportunity, which is why it’s so important for young people to have opportunity and access. You know, I think that we think about children and that they don’t wanna be a part of a discipline or that they don’t wanna be told what to do. And I think that we’re all craving having direction and having guidance. And I know that because of my upbringing I didn’t have a lot of that. And so stepping into the, to the ballet world, it was like, oh, this is exactly what I need. I needed that structure. And so I think that I was ready, I was ready for it, and I was ready to, you know, I wa it wasn’t something I was being pushed into or told I needed to do, or forced into taking a ballet class. It was something that I wanted to do when I could see the power and the beauty, and I felt so confident in myself for the first time in my life. So I think that helped me learn quickly. I, it also, you know, I think I was born to dance. I think that, oh
Laysha:
I love that you were born to dance. H what a glorious thing to know what you were born to do.
Misty:
Yeah. . Yeah. I think that you know, like stepping onto the stage for the first time and recognizing you know, the safety, like, which is so, you know, kind of counterintuitive, maybe people would think or contradictory, that you step onto a stage and you’re so naked and exposed and vulnerable. And I felt the exact opposite. I felt like this was a, a space where no one could touch me. No one could say anything to me. I’m on the stage and I’m able to express myself in a way that works for me, which was not verbally , but through my body to tell stories, you know, with my body. And there was something so empowering for me. But, you know, I also had incredible support and teachers that that understood how I learned, you know, I’m, I’m a visual learner and I picked things up really quickly, visually and could mimic them. So it was great that I had teachers that were beautiful dancers when I was, was imitating them. But it was a team that has built me and the dancer that I am
Laysha:
Oh, so empowering. I’m really struck by, again, when you said that you knew what you were born to do, and thematically the other point that you made, not only did you know what you were born to do, but you had opportunity and access really important takeaways for us as we think about things that we might need, but also what we might be called to help provide to others, including the young people in our lives. Really important. So I wanna shift gears, if that’s okay, and talk about your experience as the only black woman at the American Ballet Theater for almost a decade. And you’ve often been the first one, the only one, or one of a few, something that so many of us can relate to. I know, I certainly can. So what was that like for you as an up and coming ballerina, and did it change when you broke through to become a principal dancer?
Misty:
You know, I want to be able to say that everything is amazing now that I’m a principal dancer, and that you know, all of the issues went away. But it’s, it’s not the case. It’s, it’s been it’s been a long journey and, you know, the, those first 10 years of my career were extremely challenging. You know, to f be figuring out how to navigate as a black woman and a white space it’s really difficult. At the same time, I’m coming into my own, you know, I was 17 years old and I moved to New York City, and, and I’m growing up and becoming a woman in front of thousands of people every night on the stage and dealing with being alone. And it’s, it’s, it’s made me stronger. It’s, it’s allowed me to understand people in a better way how do, have real conversations. And and it, it’s, it’s hard to articulate, you know, and, and it, that it’s shouldn’t be our responsibility as black people and as black women to put our feelings aside in order to make whoever we’re talking to feel safe and comfortable talking about uncomfortable topics. But that’s something that I learned to do in order to succeed in a white space. So it was, you know,
Laysha:
And so you, you found yourself trying to make other people feel more comfortable. And, and how did you do that in a way that didn’t require that you shrink and become less than yourself? How were you able still still able to stand strong and, and be who you were in that context?
Misty:
I think that it goes back to what I was saying earlier and, and what my mother instilled in me. I stepped into this space, having a, having a comfortable and strong understanding of who I was as a black woman. So that when I came to the space, it wasn’t like I was confused and I, you know, and I was trying to shrink or not be black in this space, but it was more about having the confidence in who I was in, in, in my skin, and being vulnerable in expressing my experiences. So, you know, it it, you know, the stereotype of black women of, of, you know, being maybe overemotional of women have that stereotype, or black women just being too aggressive. So all of these things are going through my mind at 19 years old when I’m having conversations with my artistic director, which is already terrifying, you know to, to have a conversation with your boss. But I, you know, was just aware, I was having conversations before I was having the conversation to prepare. It was like rehearsing for the performance
Laysha:
. I think we all often do that. That’s such
Misty:
A great point, right? Which I think is a great idea, you know, to, to run through the, those thoughts in your mind and, and be comfortable with what it is you wanna articulate and say. And I was doing that from a young age and, and being open and sharing that these are, these are the experiences I’m having as a black woman in this space, and asking questions and asking for advice and having a, a conversation. So it wasn’t just me being emotional and saying, this is happening to me and I don’t know what to do. But having, having a back and forth, and I built a beautiful relationship with a lot of the artistic staff at American Valley Theater that I think allowed for them to see me as a human being, and not just as a black woman or someone who’s different, or someone who’s coming fr you know, with a chip on my shoulder.
Laysha:
Yeah. I love that. I often say, see me as I am, not as you want me to be. And I think that’s certainly something that you’ve expressed often difficult for people. And I think it’s important for us to get comfortable having uncomfortable conversations. And certainly, it sounds like you had to do that at a very early age. And, and it’s a journey, quite frankly, that many of us are still on. But it’s an important one if we wanna unlock trusted relationships that ultimately are mutually beneficial. You know, women and people of color are no strangers to biases and inequities in the workplace. And this includes the world of ballet, but lots of other industries as well. So what progress has been made from your perspective, and what work do you think remains?
Misty:
You know, in all my years of being a part of the, the ballet world it has been so slow. , the conversations that I’ve had since I joined ab b t as a professional have been conversations that a lot of professionals weren’t having. The most progress I’ve seen has been in the last three years with within the pandemic you know, with the rise of Black Lives Matter and this racial reckoning, it’s, I think, surprising to a lot of people who maybe don’t know the ballet world so well. But they took notice and note and started to make real change. I think it was a combination of you know, not having theaters available to us and not be able to share our, our art with the world and kind of go through you know, all of the things that everyone in the world was going through within the pandemic and not having our art to process that I think played a role in it. But over the last three years, I’ve seen companies open up this dialogue and listen to the dancers of color in, in the company in a real way, where it’s not just kind of noise in the background, but
Laysha:
It’s not performative then. It’s not performative. You think it’s actually, you know, empathetic and that empathy is leading to understanding and ultimately action from your
Misty:
Standpoint. I’ve seen the performative work for 20 plus years, and this was real internal work that I’ve seen being done within the classical ballet world. Whether it was conversations I was having with artistic directors and other elite ballet companies all over the world you know, directors of ballet schools of, of major ballet schools or the conversations we were having internally within a b t that made me feel like things, this is a, a shift that I’d never experienced before. We still, of course, have so much work to do, and, and I feel like my, my role at this point and, and how I can make a real impact is beyond what I’m doing on the stage. It’s, it’s having a, having a voice on platforms like this. It’s being able to express the importance of diversity from every angle of the, of the ballet structure. You know, that I think that we’ve often looked at, you know, as we do in Hollywood and television, film, whatever it is that we think like, oh, we see diversity on the screen or on the stage, and that’s enough. But it’s about diversity in boardrooms. It’s about diversity behind, behind the scenes in the education departments and on the artistic staff. It’s, it’s at every level to really make real progress and change.
Laysha:
Absolutely. And, you know, I think you’re getting at how do we make sure that this is more than just a moment, but a movement towards sustainable progress and sustainable change. So I really appreciate you sharing that perspective, and I think it’s useful as we all continue to work on addressing inequities in whatever industry that we are a part of. And you certainly continue to play a really critical role in driving real change with your approach to dance education. So I would love it if you could talk to us a bit more about the work that you’re doing in that space and your Be Bold program. Yeah,
Misty:
Thank you so much for asking me this question, because I am so passionate about this first program through the Misty Copeland Foundation it’s, it’s been so important for me to to use my platform and to use my voice and to use the access that I have to both, you know, black and brown communities as well as the ballet world, and kind of bring them together. How do we create real change within the ballet structure? How do we bring access and opportunity to communities that, that feel that they can’t be a part of the ballet world or that it’s not for them, or that it doesn’t embrace their culture? So the B Bold program is the first in the Misty Copeland Foundation, and it stands for Ballet Explorations.
Ballet Offers Leadership Development so it’s a free ballet class in the afterschool hours. It’s for boys and girls, ages eight to 10, but we’re not turning anyone down. I’m like, if you show up and you wanna take this free ballet class, we are taking you in . But we’re starting out at at community centers and what better way to start out than out of Boys and Girls Club? So we have five Boys and Girls club sites in the Bronx that this program is being offered at, and it just started a couple of weeks ago. So it’s, it’s extremely exciting just to be able to, you know, build the, the curriculum from the ground up the framework. So it’s not your typical ballet class. I wanted this to be a ballet class that was, again, embracing different, embracing different communities.
So whether it’s through the, the types of instruments that are being played in the classroom. So it’s not just recorded music, which is, is often the case in a lot of small ballet schools. It’s not just classical piano music. We have drummers, we have guitarists, we have percussionist, we have different types of music being played depending on what communities we’re in that really can embrace the, their culture. But it’s a ballet class that you know, it’s, it’s ongoing movement. It’s not a lot of stopping and starting and getting that feedback and criticism that we were talking about, but it’s, it’s fun, it’s affordable, and it’s accessible. And I’m really proud and can’t wait to see how it how this year goes.
Laysha:
Oh, I’m so excited to see how this program unfolds. And I, I love the cultural component that you just spoke to as well. You know, using music and other forms of teaching that allow those students to feel seen and heard and valued and welcomed into the field of ballet is really beautiful. So just love this program and your commitment to being of service to the next generation of talent. So thank you very, very much. You know, you’ve benefited from mentors and other caring adults who’ve invested in you, and you know, you are doing the same you know, in fact, you described your mentor Raven Wilkinson as the wind beneath your back, and that’s such a beautiful way to think about that relationship. So can you talk to us further about your relationship with Raven and other mentors as well?
Misty:
Yeah, it’s been, you know, a beautiful journey that I’ve experienced with mentors throughout the course of my life and, and my career. You know, even thinking back to the Boys and Girls Club, which is really, I think the first time that I, I ever even heard that word before. And, and having that support structure of, of tutoring and mentorship within that space, which is why I wanted this program, the program, the Bebo program, to be in a, in a community center that, that does that. But I’ve just had incredible relationships that have been able to allow me to have an understanding and commitment, first of all, with, you know, these intergenerational relationships I think are so important. And and that’s something that I’ve, I’ve always embraced throughout the, the course of my career. I remember Victoria Rowel, who’s an actress and she was about, I know, I remember her too.
Yes, yes. She’s fabulous. She was, started out as a ballerina at American Ballet Theater in their junior company. Yes. And she became, she was probably one of the first black women like mentors that came into my life when I was a brand new company member at American Ballet Theater. And then Susan Fails Hill, who wrote this book. The Wind at My Back with Me was another mentor, an amazing black woman that came into my life that was on the board of trustees at American Ballet Theater. But I’ve had so many of these incredible women that have come in and, and not forced themselves or their opinions, or how to go about things on me. And Raven is just kind of the ultimate culmination of all the mentors in my life. You know, when I, when I met her, I was at a point in my career where I felt like I was a bit at a standstill.
I had reached that level of soloist and had been there for some time and didn’t know how to progress to the next level, and didn’t really feel like I was being seen with the potential of being a principal dancer. And meeting Raven, who was the first and only black ballerina to dance in a major elite company was the ballet, Russ de Montecarlo the first major company to come to America from Europe. And she was a soloist in the company, and this was in the 1950s, and her career was cut short in America because the KKK was threatening her life whenever they would tour through the South. And it was hard for not just her, but the entire company and, and, and their safety. So when I learned of her, her path and, and her career, it was just eye-opening. It was like my purpose became so much bigger.
It became about setting an example, it became about reaching out and being a mentor to the next generation, being a role model to the next generation. But it, it, it just became even more beautiful when I learned that she lived only a block away from me on the Upper West Side. She lived a block away from you. Seriously? Yeah. That’s crazy. Yeah. And we ended up becoming really great friends into not just have a mentor from a or, or, you know, know from afar to appreciate someone’s career and learn from them, but to have her in my life and actually impart these amazing lessons on me. And again, it was never, it never felt like she was sitting down and preaching to me. It were these beautiful stories she would share about her experiences that in the end had a beautiful lesson that I learned. Whether it was how you communicate with other people, like we’re all human beings and we’re all going through something. And never to, you know, she never, you know, played the victim, even though what she experienced was a lot crazier than most of us have experienced. Just the, the beautiful ways in which she nurtured me and taught me was on another level of mentorship that I, than I’ve ever experienced.
Laysha:
Oh, it sounds so beautiful. And you’re brilliant. So I have a feeling she learned a thing or two from you as well, , because, you know, we all ultimately have something that we can learn and something that we can teach. So, yeah, you know, resilience and grace are two topics that you explore in your new book. So let’s start with grace. Now, most of us can’t emulate your physical grace. I know I certainly can’t, but grace isn’t just a physical attribute. So can you talk to us about what grace means to you outside of the ballet studio?
Misty:
Raven is such a beautiful example of grace in a way that is, is outside of the, outside of the stage and, and the studio, but it’s a way that you carry yourself. I think it’s a respect for yourself and for other people. Having a grace in the way you communicate with people, the way you treat people, the way you treat yourself. That’s the way I’ve always looked at grace. So it’s never been something that’s, that’s solely attached to ballet. I know that people think about ballet and they think of grace, but I think the, the women that have been in my life as well as the, the, the ballet technique and the beautiful environments of, you know, when you’re in a studio or you’re in a theater and you’re performing a, a role that have taught me a certain grace and a patience with myself and with other people. There’s so much attached and, and so much within that word that has shaped who I am today.
Laysha:
Oh, fantastic. On the, on the physical side of grace, though, I do find myself trying to sit up a little taller in my seat and think about my posture, because I’m talking to you, . I’m still work. I’m still working on it though. ,
Laysha:
I’m trying, I’m trying, trying, trying to do better every day, like we talked about earlier. Okay, so let’s turn to resilience, which I think is an essential life skill. What have you learned about resilience that’s helped you?
Misty:
You know, I, when I think about resilience, like it goes back to my childhood and, and I think watching, watching my mother be so resilient in, you know, her journey, the, the way that she raised us through all of the ups and downs and the hardships, like she never gave up. You know, she was, she was doing the best she could every day. And I think that that has been instilled in me from a young age, what it is to have resilience. I’ve learned that, you know, like I was saying earlier, like everyone’s going through something in their lives and you know, one person’s lowest like isn’t. You know, I think that we’re all, we’re all working and we’re all trying to do our best and be the best that we can be. And that, you know, resilience has been my way of succeeding by having, by having resilience and understanding that life is a journey. My career is a journey. Being in the studio working towards a goal, it’s a journey, and it’s something that’s beautiful to embrace and be in the moment. And you know, it’s not just about getting to that end result. And I think being present through the journey has given me resilience. Yeah. I don’t know if that, if that makes
Laysha:
Any sense. I love that sense, but I, I love that. And, and it’s a reminder, I think, to appreciate the journey, not just the destination. Right. And, and I often talk about a life and leadership learning journey, because ultimately I think that’s the journey that we’re all on. And you beautifully articulated that I think and, you know, the Conference for Women is all about women supporting women, and I think your perspective on grace and resilience is something that we can all use. What are some of the other ways that you think women can best help each other?
Misty:
I think that it’s really kind of like stepping back and getting out of our own way to, you know, feel that, well, I think number one, it’s, it’s really not only up to us, it’s, it’s the, it’s the, you know, society. It’s the structures that we exist in that I think have to grow and adapt and evolve in order for us to have a real chance at even being in a position to be able to support one another. You know, I think it’s having those conversations and and being honest about our, our experiences as women. But, you know, for me, like as a black woman, it’s, it’s often difficult because companies say like, we are, we have one, so we don’t, we don’t need another. So we end up competing with each other. And I think that it’s important that we kind of come together in a, in a sisterhood and and try and break those barriers.
I, I mean, I guess it’s up to us because you know, we’re still waiting for society to catch up and give us, you know, fair opportunity and not pin us against one another. And so, you know, I think that it’s, it’s not comparing yourself to the women that you’re around, but learning from one another and supporting one another. You know, for me, like looking at the next generation and having setting an example by, by leading for the young, young dancers that I’m around, young women to know that we are there for each other and we don’t have to compete to get a certain position that if we embrace one another, we learn from our experiences that that’s the best outcome.
Laysha:
Oh, I love that. We need to lean on and lift up one another. Send the elevator back down. Yes. For each other. Yes. They’re putting more seats around the table and, you know, and if there aren’t enough tables, we need to build our own damn tables. Yes. . I love that. And so it’s certainly up to us and our allies to change the systems, the structures, and the policies that sometimes weren’t created, quite frankly, for us to be as successful as we deserve to be. And as you said earlier, it’s about opportunity and access. But it’s also about action. So appreciate you calling us to you know, make sure that we are claiming our power and then empowering others through our words and our actions. Really, really love that. Ooh, girl. Misty, I could talk with you for hours, but unfortunately we’re nearing the end of our time. And as I mentioned at the start of our conversation, you are a new mom. Congratulations. And so, as you navigate motherhood and being a working mom, what are some of the ways that you renew, reset and reconnect?
Misty:
Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting thinking about thinking about this question. Because all the ways that I renew and, and reset, and they’re all kind of intertwined and connected. So like, the way that I kind of reset when it comes to my work and my career is like through family. So, you know, it’s, it’s taking my, my baby boy Jackson, and like and, and really giving my attention and focus to him and love and, and nurturing. But at the same time, when I need that reset from family, it’s like I’m going into the studio and I’m having me time and I’m focusing on my body, and I’m focusing on kind of rebalancing physically and emotionally, like who I am so that I can be full at home. So it’s like this constant, like ping pong, a bag and forth. I, in the house, I’m refilling to go back in the studio, in the studio. I’m refilling so I can go back home. But I think it’s, it’s just important to for me not to like, forget myself and, and, and who I am in, in all of the different kind of aspects of my life.
Laysha:
Mm, amen. Amen. You know, I often say self-care isn’t selfish. Right. It’s essential. It’s absolutely essential.
Misty:
Yes.
Laysha:
Misty, this conversation has been an absolute gift that I know we’ve all fully received. So thank you. You are an inspiring trailblazer who lives and leads with purpose and with humanity. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Misty:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was such an honor.
