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Being the new person on the team is never easy, and having an adjustment period is perfectly natural.
But what happens when you are not just the new person, but also the person in charge — and everyone is looking to you for answers? The listener featured in this episode of That’s a Good Question finds herself in this very predicament.
Feeling tremendous self-doubt and a lack of confidence, she is finding it difficult to provide the guidance her team needs to get the job done.
We’re joined today by special guest expert Uthra Sundaram, head of global product & launch strategy at Takeda. Through active problem solving, practical advice and shared experiences, we will offer actionable tips and tricks to help flip the internal script, squash feelings of self-doubt and gain back confidence.
Uthra Sundaram
Uthra Sundaram is head of global product & launch strategy at Takeda. She leads the organization’s focus on realizing the promise of our pipeline, driving global brand growth, and becoming a center of excellence for both asset strategy and launch success. Sundaram brings a passion for building connections between commercial and R&D, as well as a broad global background in the U.S., Europe, and Asia. Sundaram joined Takeda as our global commercial leader for gastroenterology (GI) and moved into the USBU to build and lead our GI business unit. Her leadership principle is to inspire people with a clear and compelling vision while supporting them by elevating their cross functional skills. She believes in candid feedback, team empowerment, crisp decision-making, and being a role model of the values she advocates. Sundaram holds a degree in electronics and communication engineering, a post-graduate diploma in management, and an MBA from Yale School of Management.
Celeste Headlee
Celeste Headlee is a communication and human nature expert, and an award-winning journalist. She is a professional speaker, and also the author of Speaking of Race: Why Everybody Needs to Talk About Racism—and How to Do It, Do Nothing, Heard Mentality, and We Need to Talk. In her twenty-year career in public radio, she has been the executive producer of On Second Thought at Georgia Public Radio, and anchored programs including Tell Me More, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered, and Weekend Edition. She also served as cohost of the national morning news show The Takeaway from PRI and WNYC, and anchored presidential coverage in 2012 for PBS World Channel. Headlee’s TEDx talk sharing ten ways to have a better conversation has over twenty million total views to date. @CelesteHeadlee
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Photo credit: iStock/gorodenkoff
Episode Transcript
Celeste Headlee:
Okay. So Lisa, the problem that we got from you was about imposter syndrome. And before we get into the specifics of the situation that you’re in, I wanted to start with that phrase imposter syndrome. When you say that, what do you mean?
“Lisa”:
When I say imposter syndrome, to me, it means where I am performing a role that I feel like in the back of my mind, maybe I’m not up to that standard to perform that role. Even though I have, I think, the background and the certifications to perform that role. But in my head, I feel like I don’t… I’m not feeling that I’m that person, if that makes sense,
Celeste Headlee:
It does. What is making you feel that way? Are there specifics? Like, are there times when you have a task that you have to do and you not only don’t know how to do it, but you don’t even know how to learn how to do it? What’s making you feel that way?
“Lisa”:
Well, a thing about consulting, you’re brought into a project with, it could be a different client, and you have no idea on their business processes or how they’ve implemented anything. But when you start with a new job, you come into a project that’s already in flight and the team’s already established. And then say me as a new person coming in to perform this role as like a leader for people on the team and not having that background knowledge of everything that goes on and to be able to be that expert that they can go to and ask questions… It puts me in a predicament where I feel like, okay, I don’t know the answer to this. Does that mean that I shouldn’t be doing this role? I know where I can get this information and I can read it.
So that’s where my dilemma is, where I feel that I’m supposed to be the expert. I’m supposed to know everything that’s going on when I don’t, even though I know where I can find it, but it’s hard for me to jump right into a brand new project with brand new team and to fill that role without making the team feel like, well, she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. How is she going to help us?
Celeste Headlee:
So how long have you been in this situation? When did you get put into this new role?
“Lisa”:
I started this new role in March and because of the role that I was in, I was put right away into a project. So I have access to documentation and stuff like that. But again, I don’t have that historical knowledge where I can just jump in and provide best practices right away. And with this project being already in flight and things moving fast, I just want to make sure that I’m contributing the best I can. And right now I feel like I’m not, and I want to change that feeling and I want people to know that I do know what I’m doing and I can help out.
Celeste Headlee:
Okay. So have there been comments from people to the effect of, “Why don’t you know this?” Have other-
“Lisa”:
No. No.
Celeste Headlee:
So this is all coming from inside your head?
“Lisa”:
Yes.
Celeste Headlee:
Okay. This is a great moment to bring in our experts. Uthra, I have to assume this all sounds familiar to you.
Uthra Sundaram:
Very familiar, and I’m no expert on this, Celeste and Lisa, but it’s an emotion that is, as you said Celeste, is very familiar to me as well. And I think as I look at my career and the different experiences I’ve had when I’ve made changes in roles, and generally by my philosophy, in terms of my growth as a leader has been, look for opportunities where I will be challenged, but also where I bring value. And so the fact that I’m looking for those opportunities, I absolutely have the same emotions when I get into a new role, where I’m sometimes overwhelmed with what I don’t know and then sometimes second guess whether I was ready to make this move. And I don’t know, Celeste, if you want me to go through what I do, as my little tricks of the trade that I use to help me get the comfort, but also build confidence for me and also for the teams.
Celeste Headlee:
Yeah. I think that would be really useful. Yeah.
Uthra Sundaram:
So I, what I try to do is, first of all, I recognize that it’s something that will happen as an emotion. And I have to remind myself to be forgiving that I have this question in my mind where I’m actually challenging my own competencies for a particular job where I may have the least confidence in myself versus everyone else in the room who has full confidence in me as the leader. So I have to remind myself that. What I try to do in those moments is couple of things. And I was hearing you, Lisa, as you talked about, as a consultant, you’re coming into this project, there’s already a team dynamic that exists. You’re coming in into this new term dynamic, but also there’s history on decision making on specificities around that project that you don’t have. And then you’re coming in as a leader and you want to be now a leader to help everyone else without that context.
And I’ve been in those situations in the past. And the way I try to really navigate through that is, one is, spend some time understanding, listening to people. I really feel as a new leader, when you come in with a level of humility, you will have people ready… Everyone wants to help you succeed. And so really understanding what’s important about that history that you need to understand, taking that time to understand that. One of the things that I use as my own mechanism to build my own confidence is, I will do a little more reading than I’ve done in a traditional way. So if I’m new to a particular area, I’ll be like, okay, maybe I need to read up a little more there. So let me spend more time reading and then reach out to the team for things that will help me elevate my own knowledge so that it builds my own confidence.
And then I do surround myself with people from that team who can actually give me feedback, who can be people who are really being honest with me about where I stand in terms of my responsibility as a leader and really hold me accountable to that, but also taking permission from them that I’m not going to be perfect on day one and this is a journey of me coming to that, to a level of competency so that I can actually be ready to be their leader. So also seeking their permission to be okay with me, be patient with me, as I also embark on this journey along with them, but we do it together. And along the way, I’m there to be their thought partner, to be someone who can help them make decisions quickly, but I’m going to be learning along the way as well. And so I think that’s how I’ve been able to navigate some of that. It’s an emotion that unfortunately comes to me as well, but I recognize it. And then I use mechanisms to really help myself navigate through that.
Celeste Headlee:
So that’s a lot of advice in there, Lisa. And one of the things I took out of there is, I wonder how much of the uncertainty you’re feeling is based on the fact that you’re coming into a cohesive group and you may not feel that sense of belonging that you’ve felt in the past. What do you think?
“Lisa”:
I think that might be part of it too, because this group is very tight-knit and close and they’ve been working on this project together for quite a while. So like you suggested, I have done some research in my off time, on the evenings and weekends, to try to read up on documentation, to get to where I feel like I have the knowledge to be able to answer some questions. It does still… During some meetings, if somebody calls me out saying, “Oh, ask Lisa, she’s the expert.” And then in my head I’ll go, “Oh, don’t ask me yet. I don’t know. I’m not an expert at it yet.” But I’ve learned to be able to ask questions around it. I’ve had team members say, “You’re awfully quiet on the meetings,” because I’m not the kind of person that likes to take over meetings. I like to listen, to hear what’s going on, and then I come back with questions, because I don’t want to start asking questions when I don’t have all the context.
Celeste Headlee:
Lisa, some of the newer research, and this was outlined in Adam Grant’s new book, shows that imposter syndrome is actually… The new book, Think Again, the Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know. New research indicates that imposter syndrome is actually a strength, not a weakness. In other words, leaders who question themselves, who doubt themselves, are actually, in the end, better leaders than those who don’t. So what you’re calling imposter syndrome is really your learning curve. This is you questioning your decisions and you’re in a state of heightened learning where you’re going to go back and say, “Oh, I don’t know that.” And then you’re going to go find out the answer and really dig into things and ask the questions that you need to ask. And maybe this isn’t a moment for you to be beating yourself up for feeling like an imposter, but embrace this as a real strength.
Uthra Sundaram:
I agree, Celeste, and I think I’ve gotten… And Lisa, I’m with you. I’m an introvert. I feel very awkward speaking just to speak, and I like to have everything all buttoned up before I speak. And I’ve learned over time that no, my voice matters. And if I have a question in my mind, although it’s not fully thought through, I need to have that voice out there, to ask that question or to probe or even have an opinion that may be just half baked, but put it out there so that at least we know that’s an area we need to look at. And I’ve started figuring out a way to be comfortable doing that without being completely all buttoned up and polished. And it takes time, but it’s something that I’ve gotten comfortable with.
It’s practice. You got to psychologically make yourself really prepared to go head on doing that. And I agree with you, Celeste, it actually opens up conversations because you come with a fresh perspective. You’re asking from someone who’s not in the weeds of what the team has done and suddenly you’re looking at it from a different angle, which actually may be a very important aspect that has been ignored. There are so many possibilities that actually come through that. And then just from a leadership perspective, it just helps you build confidence in having that voice that’s so relevant in these conversations without always resorting to just having everything fully baked.
Celeste Headlee:
The other thing to think about here, Lisa, and then I want to get your thoughts on all that you’re saying, is that, I mean, I would be asking yourself, why would your leadership have put you in this position when there was a cohesive team right in the middle of a project? And one of the things they may have been wanting was someone who was going to question the assumptions, someone who was going to come in with fresh eyes and not have a set understanding of the project or the team already in place. Maybe that’s what they wanted. Maybe that’s why you’re in the role that you’re in. What do you think?
“Lisa”:
Yeah, I could see that making sense. Coming in there with a fresh set of eyes, with some big enhancements coming down the pipe and just getting my thoughts around them. Yeah, I know these new enhancements coming down the pipe, I haven’t had a chance to actually do one of those before, but I feel that I am capable of leading that effort. I may not have all the answers, but I guess that’s where I rely on my team, their strengths, their individual strengths, that I can use to help make successful future software enhancements.
Celeste Headlee:
I wanted to get your thoughts on the rest of this in terms of shifting your perspective on this feeling that you’re having, embracing it rather than resisting.
“Lisa”:
That I’m not sure how to do, because in my head, I still feel like I haven’t truly earned my title, even though I’ve done it for years. I don’t know why in this situation, why I’m having these doubts. I don’t know if it’s because I’m doing work for organizations that I feel very passionate about. Maybe that’s why I’m having that feeling. I don’t know where this is coming from. In my past, I’ve never had this type of feeling. So it’s scary in a way, for me.
Celeste Headlee:
Uthra, any advice here on helping Lisa to shift her perspective?
Uthra Sundaram:
Yeah, I think for me, Lisa, I would say it’s… And I’m trying to think through in terms of… Because when you have this burden of doubt in your mind, I’d hate for it to really be visible for the rest of the team and manifest into a team energy that you don’t want, right, because they’re looking at you as a leader and the last thing they want is your doubting your own capability or your own worthiness as a leader, which I think would be a disappointment for them. So I would say maybe it’s baby steps, Lisa, for you, because you can’t just change your perception and your mentality overnight. It’s your quick wins. Can you find those quick wins that give you that reassurance that you’re moving in the right direction and be very purposeful about what those quick wins would be on a daily basis?
There are times when I make a tough decision and literally I’ll look at myself in the mirror and say, deep down was this the right call that I made, with the right information that I had? And you said you’re working in an industry or with a team that you’re very passionate about. So really go down to what’s driving you, what’s that passion that drives you to really excel? Which is great, because a lot of times people are just working to work. You’re doing something that’s meaningful for you, which is amazing because now you can anchor to what’s meaningful, that purpose that you want to drive towards. And then look at those quick wins, that’ll help you get there. So you have now an end goal, you have a north star that excites you, and it’s now just helping you receive that the progress you’re making to really achieve that north star.
And then the other thing I want to talk about is trust. Because along the ways, how do you build trust with this team, right? You need them as much as they need you. So the journey to get there is a journey of also building trust. And so how can you be purposeful about building trust with that team, that’s much more, I would say, stable now that you’ve entered that team, but look for those quick wins and then, you know what, it’s baby steps. But I think once you start seeing progress being made, I think, to be honest, then it becomes really something that’s much bigger than what it was when you started. And you literally create a snowball effect because of that. And then you start seeing yourself propel towards that north star very quickly, but be patient on those quick wins and those early stage efforts that you have to make to get there.
Celeste Headlee:
Lisa, can you think of quick wins that you could aim for?
“Lisa”:
Yeah. I think I can think of some quick wins that are some small items coming up, but they would be very impactful.
Celeste Headlee:
I think also that one of the antidotes to fear of something is to do the thing. And so I would think that when you begin to feel lesser than because you don’t know something… So somebody says, ask a question. Okay, let me put it this way. One of the professions that has the hardest time saying, “I don’t know,” is doctors. And we can all understand why, right? You don’t want to go to the doctor and say, “Hey, doc, what’s wrong with me?” and they kind of shrug and they’re like, “No idea.” Nobody wants that. And so doctors have a real tough time admitting when they don’t know something, which unfortunately means a lot of the time they’re guessing.
And so they did a series of studies to try to get doctors to learn how to say, “I don’t know.” And they found that the doctors who were trained to say when they didn’t know something to say, “I don’t know, but I’ll find out,” their patient’s view of those doctors’ intellect, their preparedness, their experience, their knowledge, went up by double digits, just by changing that one phrase from guessing to, “I don’t know, but I’ll find out.” And if you can make that your paradigm when you don’t know something, which is, “I don’t know, but I will put a pin in that, I will know that and get back to you,” not only are you learning that thing, right, you’re discovering the things that you don’t know, which is really valuable information, but you’re also going to really increase the trust that your team has in you. What do you think?
“Lisa”:
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And that’s a key thing to a cohesive team, is trust with everybody, being able to rely on others to make things happen. And while I know I don’t know everything and I will never know everything and I don’t want to know everything, but I do want to know where I can find it or who I can ask. And that was something that I learned in the military too, when we had to present in front of our boards in the military, if we didn’t know the answer, we always said, “I do not know the answer to that question, but I will find out and I will get back to you.”
So that’s one thing that I don’t have a problem with is saying, “I don’t know,” and admitting that I don’t know something. And then I go research and ask people questions and try to get as much information as possible. Sometimes it takes longer than maybe what it would take somebody else, depending on what I’m researching. But I always like to go into meetings knowing what the discussion is before I join the meeting. So sometimes I’ll research beforehand if I know what the meeting’s about. So that way I don’t go into the meeting completely clueless, just in case they call me out in the meeting.
Celeste Headlee:
I mean, it’s very important to keep in mind that all those times that you say, “I don’t know,” research shows you’re actually increasing that trust. You are building those bridges that are going to make you part of that cohesive team. Rather than people expecting you to know, I don’t think people expect you to know. I mean, I’ll get Uthra’s view on this, but I don’t think anyone expects you coming brand new into this team and brand new into this project, I don’t think that expectation is there that you’ll know everything.
“Lisa”:
That’s where I’m confused, because when I get hired in a role and I’m a higher level than everybody else, I’m worried that the team members think, “Well, she should know this. She’s a senior level, she should know all this information,” but I don’t, because every client uses their software differently, so everybody has different needs. So there’s no possible way that I could know everything just jumping right in.
Celeste Headlee:
Uthra, I don’t think they expect her to, do you?
Uthra Sundaram:
No. And, Lisa, what you just said is exactly what your team needs to hear as well, to say, you know what, I’m here as your leader, but there are things that I don’t know for this reason. And I’ll get there, but I’m going to rely on you to help me get there, and really then leverage them to support you while you build your knowledge base because it’s a new system. It’s a new solution. There’s technology that might be very different. But it’s having that conversation very openly. And then picking the areas where you can already see, because you’re coming with so much more experience as a consultant, you’ve led other projects. That’s where you can bring your own really experience to say, “Okay, and these areas maybe we need to look at, we need to do differently.”
So they start seeing you making a difference because you bring that with your experience, but they also acknowledge that you’re still learning. That conversation you just had explaining why you won’t know is the exact conversation I would just replay with the team. So everyone’s then in the same common playing field, in terms of what role do they play, what role do you play, and the journey of growth together as you also work on this project.
Celeste Headlee:
What do you think about that? Is that something that’s doable?
“Lisa”:
Yes, definitely.
Celeste Headlee:
Okay. So, Uthra, what other things might she do as she goes forward to create those bonds of trust with this team?
Uthra Sundaram:
One thing I do a lot of, Lisa is feedback. Especially when I’m new to a team and I’m new as a leader, because I have all these doubts about myself. I need a corrective mechanism as well. And to be honest, both for the pluses, but also the minuses, right, in terms of feedback. And I would think about how do you want to get feedback from your team and real time feedback as well. So you talked about, you prepare for a meeting and you go in and the conversation happens. Maybe coming out of the meeting, you say, “Hey guys, what did you see from me in terms of leadership? Is there something I need to do better of in terms of maybe speaking up for the team or knowing certain areas?” And so you’ll get that real time feedback.
And you’ll see patterns in that feedback, because sometimes you can get a lot of feedback and you just have to figure out, you can’t get overwhelmed by it, because then that can be also very disappointing, and you don’t want to get dejected further. But you’ll start seeing patterns where you have to say, you know what, this is what I’m doing very well. I need to maybe do more of that, so that the teams really feel comfortable. This is one area where maybe I need to work on, and it could be just some ramp up in your technical knowledge, but then there’ll be some feedback you’ll say, no, I don’t agree with that, and then that’s great because you know what, in that area, you might go back to your team and say, “Hey, I got feedback in this particular area, but this is not how I’m going to approach it. I’m going to do it differently for this reason.”
So they also then know what you want to bring to the table and the areas you will work on, based on the feedback, but you’ve heard them, which actually builds a lot of trust, and there are areas you’ll work on, but there are areas that you don’t agree with them on for this reason. I do that. For me, feedback is my mechanism to course correct my internal perceptions about myself, but also external perceptions about people. And that helps me grow as a leader, to be honest. And then feedback’s tough to hear. So just shielding yourself from getting too emotional, knowing fully well that the team is doing it to help you, helps you actually feel safe in that zone of feedback as well.
“Lisa”:
I definitely will take that back and start working on feedback. I think that’ll be very helpful for both me and the team.
Celeste Headlee:
Yeah, I think so, too. And feedback can be really hard. I mean, I would say, just to go back to something that Uthra said earlier, which is when you are reaching out for feedback, go in prepared, knowing that sometimes it’s hard to take it and do what you need to do to prepare yourself to be compassionate to yourself, so that like, look, this is probably going to be tough. Let me make sure I set myself up to success. Let me choose a time of day to talk about this when I’m at my best. Let me make sure that I’ve had my coffee, if that’s your poison of choice, let me make sure I’m fed and rested, and just go into it understanding that this can be a difficult exercise and so you’re going to set yourself up to be in the best frame of mind.
Uthra Sundaram:
Very true.
Celeste Headlee:
Is there anything else that we can help you with?
“Lisa”:
I cannot think of anything right now. This discussion has been amazing. I am going to take some of this feedback with me and try to do some corrections to change my internal way of thinking.
Celeste Headlee:
Great. Any last thoughts, Uthra?
Uthra Sundaram:
No. Just, Lisa, you’re not alone in this. We all have it. It’s natural. We are very tough on ourselves all the time. And so don’t feel alone. Don’t feel that this is not natural. But there’s ways for you to overcome it and believe in yourself, because you’ve earned it. You’re a consultant for a reason. There’s people around you who see that leader in you. And so go with that confidence, but go with that humility as well, knowing fully well, you’ve got to gain that confidence and the trust in the new team, but never, never, never doubt your worthiness because you’re there for a reason and you’ll make a difference for that team.
Celeste Headlee:
That’s really good advice.
“Lisa”:
Yes. Thank you.
